We were thinking in our community group on Tuesday night about the kind of prayers we pray. Or, rather, the kind of prayers we often don’t pray.
We seem quite happy to pray generically that God’s will be done, but we seem more reticent to ask him specifically to do particular things – even those things that would (potentially) seem in line with his will. We are happy to pray for Oldham in broad terms, happy to ask him to save people generally, but very often get a bit shy about asking him to save people specifically or even to save everybody explicitly.
I asked the group, ‘have you ever asked God to save every single Muslim in Glodwick [our area of Oldham]?’ For those of you that don’t know, our area is in the 90s percentage-wise for South Asian Muslims. Did we ever pray that God would save them all? The short answer was no.
So, I asked, ‘do you believe God can save them all?’ We know the right answer, don’t we! Of course we think God can save them all. So why don’t we specifically pray that he would save them all? It’s not so much that we don’t believe he can, it’s just that we don’t really think he will! Even when we pray generically for our area, we don’t always expect the Lord to work.
But it’s not as if he hasn’t saved entire cities before, is it? When Jonah went to Nineveh, what happened? The entire city repented. What was Jonah’s response to that? I specifically didn’t want to come here because I knew you would do this! I knew you’d save them and show them grace. That’s just what you’re like. He was properly miffed off. God saved an entire city and Jonah didn’t want it to happen!
But there it is, a whole city saved. And it’s not our only such example. There are examples from church history and other more modern examples too. But for some reason, we aren’t convinced he would do that today. Not here, not among this people, so we don’t ask. Even if we do pray it, we pray ultimately believing he can but he probably won’t.
But I just wonder what would happen if we committed to meaningfully praying that God would save every person in our area? If we asked him not only believing that he can, but that it is perfectly possible he will. Could it be simply that we don’t have because we do not ask or that we ask in doubt not really believing it is possible? What if we asked, persistently, and asked believing it is both possible and entirely in line with both God’s expressed will and with his historic work in other places?
If we have a God who is able to do above and beyond what we ask or think, I suspect more often than not our prayers are just too small. We limit our prayers either because we have a limited view of God or disbelief that he would work in such a way, despite reasonable evidence to the contrary. Perhaps if we started praying genuinely big prayer – not just for an extra worker or a few funds to tide us over – but to literally save every single person in our area believing the Lord is both capable and very probably willing, I wonder what would happen?
Wouldn’t it be incredible to be praying that kind of prayer and find your church packed next Sunday morning? But even if not then, wouldn’t it be incredible to pray that kind of prayer and even see a single person from the community you are praying for enter the kingdom shortly after as a potential first fruits? Wouldn’t it be wonderful to see that prayer actually answered decades down the line? If not in our lifetime even, in glory, when we look back on those prayers we prayed and we see them fulfilled many years later, long after we’re gone.
If we start praying those kind of big prayers, who knows what the Lord might do.
Good post. Particularly the difference in what we believe can happen, and will happen through prayer. Our pastor’s son preached at the weekend that prayer can often be like following a football team; we go into it out of hope rather than expectation. We know what could happen but we think “I probably won’t get the result I’m looking for”. As a Gillingham fan, that certainly struck a chord with me!!
In terms of everyone being saved, (and I’m a new Christian so my understanding is nowhere near rock solid, and then some) doesn’t that conflict with the Calvinistic idea of an elect, and that God has always determined that specific people will be saved, and those people are a remnant of the population, past present and future (broad gate, narrow gate)?
Thanks Mark.
As a Liverpool fan, it’s hard for me to understand the football analogy you offer 😜 But I recognise the point well and think you are right.
As for a Calvinistic understanding, what is incompatible between these ideas:
1. There is an elect
2. God is sovereign in election
3. God can save whomever he will
4. God can save an entire town or city if he wills (e.g. Nineveh)
5. Pray that God would save an entire town, that his will would be to have chosen our entire area for his glory
If you can show me where you think incompatability between any of those statements/ideas lies, I might have a better shot at answering your concern. But I’m not sure I see any incompatability here.
On a local level I agree, there’s no incompatability whatsoever. But project that globally. Now, I realise this is a stretch, but imagine people in every city, town, village across the globe were to do the same thing. The result if their prayers were all answered would be the entire population of Earth being saved. And there are no words to adequately describe how wonderful that would be. But wouldn’t it also go against the principle of particular redemption and Matthew 7:14?
Or am I misunderstanding that the gate is narrow because so few people across the globe would be willing to pray in such a way, or for such a thing, which is what causes the gate to be narrow?
Thanks for taking the time to communicate with me Stephen, I really do appreciate anything that helps me to expand my understanding.
It depends how you look at it doesn’t it.
So, we are explicitly told to pray for all people everywhere in scripture. I think particularly concerning their salvation. So I think we probably should do that.
I don’t think particular redemption is killed off by this. Particular redemption is simply the doctrine that Jesus died for particular people and will accomplish their salvation definitely. He did not die for all people in general and nobody in particular. He died specifically for the elect.
However, the Bible doesn’t tell us specifically which people are elect (beyond it being those who believe) and calls us to go into all the world and preach the good news to the whole of creation. Those who are elect will believe and respond to the gospel in faith. I think we ought to think of prayer as essentially operating the same way.
Now, a lot of water has passed under the bridge between Jesus death and us. I don’t think everyone who came before us was saved so there have evidently been people who aren’t part of the elect who have died already. A group of people exist who are not elect.
As such, there is a theoretically possible world (whether we think it likely or not) in which everybody hereafter might be part of the elect; it wouldn’t be beyond God’s ability to save them, having died for them, knowing that there are those who have died already who rejected him and thus were not part of the elect. Again, whether we think this likely is not the point, just that it is theoretically possible. It would maintain an elect and non-elect whilst also making it possible for whole towns, or even the whole world henceforth, to be saved.
Nevertheless, we shouldn’t ignore reality and what is likely. So here’s how I cut matters in the real world:
1. God determines who is elect, not me, so we can leave that to him to figure out
2. God can save whomever he will, and that could include a whole town, city, everybody currently alive across the globe if he wants (we’ve established it is possible)
3. There are specific examples in scripture (Nineveh) but also church history (Welsh revivals) of whole towns and areas coming to Christ in faith so he has done it before (so we establish he has done it in the real world and thus could do it again)
4. Therefore, why would we not pray for it, knowing he can do it if he wills, knowing it is possible?
That makes a lot of sense, yes, I agree, we should pray for it.
I think I made the elementary mistake of looking to myself and others and our ability to pray with conviction and that no prayer is wasted, rather than God being able to choose which of those prayers he acts on, despite hearing all of them and delighting in receiving all of them.
It’s a variation of taking the “I’m not good enough” approach to sin and problems in daily life rather than realising that it’s already been done and that I’ll never be good enough.
Thanks Stephen, that was a lengthy and detailed response and I appreciate you taking the time. Mark
These kind of prayers are the norm in Pentecostal/charismatic Christian circles.
Wonderful – something my tribe can learn from yours